First off, I do not play/recognize fourth edition D&D/FR, so please refrain from information pertaining to spellplague/post-spellplague years.
I'm looking for some additional information on the god of revenge, Hoar. I have FRCS and F&P, but I really feel like there should be some more information in there about him and his followers. Are there any other sources, 3e or older, that describe Hoar's clergy/realm/badass-ness?
All information greatly appreciated.
Powers and Pantheons. It's a gold mine. 2E.
yes!!!! hes the man!!!!
ok now that ive got that out of the way, yes Lord Manshoon is correct, Powers & Pantheons is the book to get. He is also mentioned in the Pirates of the Fallen Stars. He has quite a following in that area but they refer to him as Assuran. He was also given some spotlight in the Dalelands source book. He has a sizable following in the Arch wood in Archendale. All 2e sourcebooks.
Sorry I just had to say it again!
Fair enough. His is one of the more enjoyable names to say.
HELM PWNS ASSURAN!!!!
the fool also known as Hoar.
HELM PWNS ASSURAN!!!!
the fool also known as Hoar.
Quite true, but no need to remind Hoar's faithful of their god's inferiority. Let us simply bask in Helm's might.
Helm? no way man, Torm maybe, but definatly not Bane.
Ne'er cared to much for Torm, liked him better than Tyr.
like Helm better.
At least thats how his name sounds to me.
AS$uran
just how long till we get this thread locked for misbehaving anyway, and which god do we blame it on?
****!At least thats how his name sounds to me.
Well yeah that is how its pronounced, but people are going to get the wrong idea about him now!
AS$uran
Come on now, people are really going to be gettin the wrong idea now!
yes Poetic isnt it
I Smite Thee!
I Smite Thee!
for what???
going with AS$uran's dogma by striking at him with poetic justice??
but its his portfolio.
your Smite failed.
Hoar is not pleased with you
Assuran. Yeah, see, it won't be edited. Assuran. Assuran. ASSuran.
ASSuran =**** oops I mean Hoar
they should of killed him off, the bad puns and all
See what you've done now? Youve brought the faithful of Hoar down on us!
Kill him off? are you serious? i think Hoar, or Assuran if you prefer (it seems to get the most laughs), is one of the more interesting deities of the Realms. I always wished that they would do more with him. He never rushed into a battle, he would spend years plotting and wait until the time was just right before he would strike! That got me wondering about Bane. I cant see him putting up with Bane for very long. Hes got something planned im telling you!!!
i think Hoar, or Assuran if you prefer (it seems to get the most laughs), is one of the more interesting deities of the Realms. I always wished that they would do more with him.
That's because he is LN, which gives him a lot more depth than most good or evil deities. And wouldn't you know it? Helm's LN, too. Two of the most morally ambiguous and complex deities in the setting. By the way, you ever read Bloodwalk by James P. Davis? One of the main characters is a Hoarite ghostwalker. He's awesome. So if you like the novels and haven't read this one, I'd give it a go. I enjoyed it.
I'll have to check that book out! I didnt even know they did any books featuring a cleric of Hoar. Sounds awesome! ill defiantly have to check that one out. Hopefully i can find it on ebay or something relatively inexpensive. I was looking for Prince of Lies, but the cheapest i could find it was for like $30! And it was the newer print too! I never thought of the novels as collector's items but i guess if theres a demand for a particular book and its out of print.....
But to get this back on topic:
Hoar is Awesome!!!
I'll have to check that book out! I didnt even know they did any books featuring a cleric of Hoar. Sounds awesome! ill defiantly have to check that one out. Hopefully i can find it on ebay or something relatively inexpensive. I was looking for Prince of Lies, but the cheapest i could find it was for like $30! And it was the newer print too! I never thought of the novels as collector's items but i guess if theres a demand for a particular book and its out of print.....
Bloodwalk is still in print. You should be able to find it for $7.99 USD. Amazon definitely has new copies.
Bloodwalk is still in print. You should be able to find it for $7.99 USD. Amazon definitely has new copies.
Yes!!!
Ooops. Afraid I made a mistake. It sells for $6.99 USD, not $7.99. So even better. And I just checked: Amazon does indeed have copies.
Double yes!!!
Bane is his Forgotten Realms "Pimp-Daddy".
Bane is his Forgotten Realms "Pimp-Daddy".
Nah. Everyone knows Cyric is Bane's *****.
Bane is his Forgotten Realms "Pimp-Daddy".
Ugh, did you have to bring that up?
Yes I did!:P
But hey look on the brightside chap, Loviatar gets to practise her skills on **** whenever she wants. Bane does have a kinky little family going on.
Yes I did!:P
But hey look on the brightside chap, Loviatar gets to practise her skills on **** whenever she wants. Bane does have a kinky little family going on.
Loviatar is a hottie! I bet Hoar doesnt mind one bit!
yeah he is spending time undercover looking For Helm's body.
yeah he is spending time undercover looking For Helm's body.
Helm did the Fusion Dance with Torm!
Why couldnt Hoar be an exarch of Torm? That would of been more fiting in my opinion. I mean Bane? What about him says justice? i dont see any common ground there at all, ok theyre both Lawful, thats it. Torm would of made the most sense, well i could see being an exarch of Shar as fiting too. But Bane? Bane!? come on now.
Yes! Hoar is a "hot topic"!
Why couldnt Hoar be an exarch of Torm? That would of been more fiting in my opinion. I mean Bane? What about him says justice? i dont see any common ground there at all, ok theyre both Lawful, thats it. Torm would of made the most sense, well i could see being an exarch of Shar as fiting too. But Bane? Bane!? come on now.
Well, I suppose they figured the Triad was all that was needed in Celestia, and that a neutral god didn't fit. And if I remember correctly, Hoar already dwelled in the Barrens of Doom and Despair. So Bane already had him eyed up, he just needed to close the deal. And nothing closes a deal quite like a cosmological catastrophe.
yeah he is spending time undercover looking For Helm's body.
Helm did the Fusion Dance with Torm!
no. he did the fusion dance with Tyr who gave up everything to Torm at his death.
well from one point of view.
his essence is still in Vigilance.
yeah he is spending time undercover looking For Helm's body.
I wonder what sick and twisted things he will do to said body if and when he finds it...
yeah he is spending time undercover looking For Helm's body.
I wonder what sick and twisted things he will do to said body if and when he finds it...
one of two if not both.
turn it over to Torm
and or
poke it with a stick
ok so yeah he might maybe poke it with a stick.
But any way back on topic:
Some Hoar Lore
Ok so the revenants are tied in with the Raven Queen in core, so most people just switch that to Kelemvor in the Realms, but actually Hoar makes more sense. That was always his thing. He had i dont know how many revenants and kursts workin for him.
Assuran gets no love until his time comes up for DDI.
which may be never
I could see some Hoar insider stuff, some articles, a full write up. That would be sweet!
I'm still hopin they do some more for the Moonsea. that has always been my favorite area, and they dont even get a background!!!
Hoar dont sits well with Torm - justice dont equal law - and law & duty is all torm accepts
bane on the other hand while is lawfull , sees justice as to tool to keep the mighty & powerfull on watch , when you fear justice - you do everything to make sure you keep the power and increase your power so that you be safe
Hoar dont sits well with Torm - justice dont equal law - and law & duty is all torm accepts
bane on the other hand while is lawfull , sees justice as to tool to keep the mighty & powerfull on watch , when you fear justice - you do everything to make sure you keep the power and increase your power so that you be safe
Yeah i guess that makes sense. I might be a little biased against Bane. I just really dont like Bane. He got killed off during the Time of Troubles not once, but two times!!!! I would of rather seen Hoar hook up with Shar than Bane. You just wait though, Hoar's up to something! Hes got a plan.
Hoar dont sits well with Torm - justice dont equal law - and law & duty is all torm accepts
Actually, Hoar sat just fine with Torm, hence why he and Tyr kept trying to win over Hoar for ages. It wasn't until Bane managed to put the kabosh on their attempts during the Spellplague that he stopped trying, if he has indeed given up hope of bringing Hoar over to the light.
as I said man He's undercover for Lord AO, thats the only reason he is still here.
why dont you write up the dragon article your self and submit it and try to get some infamy around here for it.
Assuran aid you
as I said man He's undercover for Lord AO, thats the only reason he is still here.
why dont you write up the dragon article your self and submit it and try to get some infamy around here for it.
Assuran aid you
Ecellent idea!!!!!
But we need to generate some buzz about Hoar and how Bad Assuran he is!!
not just Bad ASSuran but brilliant too, notice how all of his former pantheon are gone, and how the mulohwhatchmacallit are also gone.
so he looks out for number 1, himself If jumping ship means survival, then he's all for it.
or if its playing someone for a Sap, then he's good at that too
Good point! I guess he showed the Untheric pantheon! I notice alot of those gods/godsess are based on Babylonian Mythology, so im wondering now if Assuran has a real world tie in.
Hoar dont get enough love (Dont say it DELTA!) so im adding some more Hoar lore!
During the Time of Troubles, Hoar took as his Avatar the king of Akanax, he then used the kings armies and hired mercanaries to wage war on the neighboring city states in revenge for past insults, He evetualy conqured all of Chessenta, and with a now much larger army, marched against Unther. Ramman's Avatar (the Untheric war god) met him face to face and the two engaged in an epic duel to the death! Hoar came out the victor after weaving a spell of poetic justice, Ramman's third lighting strike rebounded and struck Ramman instead, slaying him. Unfortunatly before Hoar could seize his portfolio it was passed on to Anhur (the Muhorandi war god) who rushed to the aid of Unther and Hoar and his army were driven out in defeat 
After the Time of troubles the Alliance of Chessenta's city states fell apart, and Hoar swore vengence against Anhur, and cut him self almost entirly off from the Realms plotting and conserving strength for his next attack against Anhur.
Unfortunatly with the Spellplauge (sorry OP i know you didn't want any Spellplauge BS!), all the Muhorandi gods were whiped off the face of the Realms. So im sure that left Hoar a little directionless, i mean he was planning this for years and then poof theyre all gone!
so maybe thats why he ended up with Bane. He had nothing better to do at the time.
Even Some More Hoar Lore!!
Got it from the Man himself (Ed Greenwood)! Hoar/ Assuran is a totally Realmsian deity. No interloper status for him! Hoar is an actual creation of Ed. No designers added him in later. the Untheric and Mulhorandi panetheons as originally enviosed by Ed was asian in nature, but the desighners changed it up. But Hoar is an all orginal creation! Good to know.
You can read Ed's response to my question here.
He also sheds some light on the gods in General, that some of you might find disturbing.
I see Hoar as one of the "Watching Gods", because hes all original baby!
how interesting
Very interesting...
Indeed
There is some info on Hoar in DALE1-5 Hunters' Down. That is a 4th ed RPGA adventure, so not truly fitting for the OP, but it may contain some info (not much though) on how Hoar fits in Archendale, which may be useful pre-plague as well. I am unsure if the organisation described existed pre-plague, but I *think* they did.
There is some info on Hoar in DALE1-5 Hunters' Down. That is a 4th ed RPGA adventure, so not truly fitting for the OP, but it may contain some info (not much though) on how Hoar fits in Archendale, which may be useful pre-plague as well. I am unsure if the organisation described existed pre-plague, but I *think* they did.
That sounds pretty cool! Hoar gettin some 4e love!
Yes i believe the organisation existed pre-spellplauge as well. It seems i remeber reading something about them in the 2e Dalelands sourcebook.
some More even more Hoar lore:
The clergy of the Doombringer celebrate few major holy days, instead each each priest is encourged to celebrate the anniversaries of their most fitting and sweetest acts of poetic justice.
The Penultimate Thunder is celebrated on the 11th day of Eleint with a great feast of meat, bread, and fruits, and pleanty of mead. It marks the victory over Ramman by Hoar during the Time of Troubles.
The Imending Doom is celebrated on the 11th day of Marpenoth with daylong ceremonies of rumbling drums, vigorous oaths, and exhausting acts of purification. It celebrates justices yet to be meted out, revenges yet to be carried out, and good deeds that call to the celebrants to be remembered.
Hoar is pleased.
Hoar is pleased.
Uhm yeah ok...
Uhm instead of smiting people and giving us insight into Hoar's emotional status why not post some info? I'm sure you have some being a follower of the Lord of Three Thunders and all.
But fine I'll go again:
Even Some More Even More Hoar Lore:
Dogma: Hoar charges his clergy to uphold true and fitting justice and to maintain the spirit of the law, not the letter of the law. Fitting recompense will always accure for one's actions. Violence will meet violence and evil payback evil, but good will also come to those who do good. One must be careful to walk the line of Hoar's teachings, to seek retribution, but to fall not into pursuing evil acts for evil's sake, for that way is seductive and leads only to one's downfall. Vengence must be sought for all injustices, and all punishments must fit the crime. Revenge is sweetest when it is sharpened with irony. All attacks must be avenged. Those who do not respond to attacks against their person or that which they hold dear only invite future attacks.
Hoar is pleased.
but not with you
Hoar is pleased.
but not with you
Laying it on there pretty strong. The Lord of Three Thunders may pale in comparison to the Watcher, but why nudge his follower?
Hmm.... Now I really need to work on that Dual Chosen of Helm and Hoar I was brewing. The world shall tremble!
Hmm.... Now I really need to work on that Dual Chosen of Helm and Hoar I was brewing. The world shall tremble!
That sounds very interesting! I could defiantly see that working out. Vigilance and Vengeance hand in hand hell yeah!
Hoar is pleased.
but not with you
Laying it on there pretty strong. The Lord of Three Thunders may pale in comparison to the Watcher, but why nudge his follower?Hmm.... Now I really need to work on that Dual Chosen of Helm and Hoar I was brewing. The world shall tremble!
lacking in his duties, that is why.
Amen Brother!
Hoar is pleased.
but not with you
Laying it on there pretty strong. The Lord of Three Thunders may pale in comparison to the Watcher, but why nudge his follower?Hmm.... Now I really need to work on that Dual Chosen of Helm and Hoar I was brewing. The world shall tremble!
The world shall indeed tremble! That sounds very interesting. I'd love to see the write up on that character once you have him or her done.
I would add some info on Hoar, but you guys seem to me doing just fine. I'm just here to support my man Hoar. I will add that his followers tend to wear a lot of black and wear surreal masks while on the "hunt" , so I need to get my character a cool magical mask to wear. Whats a good source for magical masks? Adventurer's Vault 2?
And I will try to hold back on the smiting.
Alright Doombringer posted some usefull information! Yes you can find some magical masks in Adventurer's Vault 1 and 2.
And you still need to work on the smiting thing.
No more Info on Hoar? Hoar is not pleased. Consider yourself Smited! Again!
Hoar was an ancient Untheric deity but was driven out of those lands by Ramman. He quickly picked up worship in Chessenta and slowly spread throught the realms.
His major centers of worship include: The Thunderous Hand of Vengence in Akanax, The Amphitheater of the First Thunder in the independent city of Mourktar, The Hidden Hand of Fate in the Archwood, and a well tended shrine on the Dragonisle in the Sea of Fallen Stars.
Sorry i got my Ring of Smite protection +35 on, better luck next time.
rumor reports that the hoaran up there has great smite....
oh btw 1800 posts here, 200 more to go
oh btw 1800 posts here, 200 more to go
Congrats! I see that you changed your avatar too. Looks pretty kool, what is that from?
Its a statue of an ancient Chinese guy.
I can remember his name but not how to correctly spell it.
Sun Zu or something, the guy who wrote The Art of War
or atleast its supposed to be statue of him
Ah yes Sun Tsu I believe it is. Interseting choice. I was first introduced by The book Weilding a Red Sword by Piers Anthony way back when. Lots of references to the Art of War in that one. Interesting seris of book, but i think he dragged it out a little too much. Should of ended it at like book 6. But any way gettin way off topic here, quick some one post some Hoar stuff before that dude smites us again.
Hoar is cool
Hoar took Hippartes the general-major of Akanax as his avatar during the Time of Troubles. This dark-red haired warrior proceeded to set right the slight Ramman did him. Ramman had chased Hoar away from Unther during Gilgeams reign. The ever vigilent Anhur then proceeded to swipe away the portfolio of Storm, earning Hoars ire.
I wonder if Anhurs departure to Abeir, the duodimensionol copy of Toril, has made the coming revenge of the Doombringer on Anhur nearly impossible to achieve or if he has managed to get back that Storms portfolio in time.
I wonder if Anhurs departure to Abeir, the duodimensionol copy of Toril, has made the coming revenge of the Doombringer on Anhur nearly impossible to achieve or if he has managed to get back that Storms portfolio in time.
I dont know i was wondering that myself. I mean the whole time after the times of troubles Hoar was planning his revenge against Anhur, and then poof hes gone! That might of led to Hoar joining up with Bane, as Hoar had no real direction anymore. Or maybe Hoar sees being whisked away to Abeir punishment enough? Could be Hoar is still plotting his revenge and is working on a way for him to journey to Abeir to give Anhur whats coming to him.
Hoar is wont to take his time.
Revenge is a dish best served cold.
Revenge is a dish best served cold.
Khan!! Khan!! Khan!!
fancinating....
fancinating....
Im convinced that was Spocks way of saying he didnt give a rats a$$.
But back to topic:
Hoars favored weapon : Javelin of lightning. He has a magical quiver the replinshes javelins once theyre used. He also uses his magical broad sword Hand of Retribution. He favors the Bigsbys hand or similiar spells. If he claps his hands together or stomps his foot on a solid surface, it generates a sonorous, thundering boom. If Hoar creates three such thunderclaps in 3 consecutive rounds all directed at the same opponent, that being immeadiatly suffers a fitting punishment for the greatest as-yet-unpunished injustice it has ever commited.
"Revenge is a dish that is best served cold."
I just want to point out that the Klingons were not the first ones to say that. That is an old Hoarite saying, predating the Klingon's utterance of it by at least 200 years.
Also, Klingons did not write any Shakespeare, but I have a feeling he was helped out by some plane hopping Hoarites.
So we have a lot of info about Hoar posted here. I can't think of anything else to add, but I want to keep the Hoar thread alive, so I would like to know what any one else has done with him? Currently we have it set up that Hoar is secretly working against Bane. My character is a Chosen of Hoar and is currently on a quest to wipe out a group of Bane worshipers. I just can't see Hoar following a known evil deity like Bane, not unless he's got a plan.
I played a Hoarite Rogue / Champion of Hoar who hunted down Sharrans because they got personal. Good times.
Shar has warmed Hoar up for his shift to evil. She was courting him (away from Tyrs eyes) to embrace his more darker vengeful sides long before his allegiance to Bane. Shar must have lost interest because of other problems but if Hoar is sticking to work under Bane for much longer (and will eventually stick it to his Master for courting his spouse Beshaba) he'll end up permanently falling to Evil. Hoar's destiny (according to Shar) is serving the Dark Moon.
I played a Hoarite Rogue / Champion of Hoar who hunted down Sharrans because they got personal. Good times.
Shar has warmed Hoar up for his shift to evil. She was courting him (away from Tyrs eyes) to embrace his more darker vengeful sides long before his allegiance to Bane. Shar must have lost interest because of other problems but if Hoar is sticking to work under Bane for much longer (and will eventually stick it to his Master for courting his spouse Beshaba) he'll end up permanently falling to Evil. Hoar's destiny (according to Shar) is serving the Dark Moon.
Well I don't like the idea of Hoar serving Shar either, but that does make a lot more sense to me, especially being that Vengeance is one of Shar's portfolios.
I havnt really done anything with Hoar, but I did use the Hidden Hand of Fate. The party was passing through Archenwood after being chased out of Sembia by Shades riding Shadow Dragons. The members of the Hand of Fate I had them run into were friendly and I was going to let them stay at their temple for the night so they wouldnt have to camp in the dark woods and all that, but for some reason the party wanted nothing to do with followers of Hoar, and declined, prefering to sleep in the woods, go figure. Im not sure if the group has something against Hoar or just orginanized religion in general. I'll have a similiar situation but they'll be priests of Bahamut and see what they do then.
I havnt really done anything with Hoar, but I did use the Hidden Hand of Fate. The party was passing through Archenwood after being chased out of Sembia by Shades riding Shadow Dragons. The members of the Hand of Fate I had them run into were friendly and I was going to let them stay at their temple for the night so they wouldnt have to camp in the dark woods and all that, but for some reason the party wanted nothing to do with followers of Hoar, and declined, prefering to sleep in the woods, go figure. Im not sure if the group has something against Hoar or just orginanized religion in general. I'll have a similiar situation but they'll be priests of Bahamut and see what they do then.
The Realms is a minefield of organized religions. This should be entertaining.
I havnt really done anything with Hoar, but I did use the Hidden Hand of Fate. The party was passing through Archenwood after being chased out of Sembia by Shades riding Shadow Dragons. The members of the Hand of Fate I had them run into were friendly and I was going to let them stay at their temple for the night so they wouldnt have to camp in the dark woods and all that, but for some reason the party wanted nothing to do with followers of Hoar, and declined, prefering to sleep in the woods, go figure. Im not sure if the group has something against Hoar or just orginanized religion in general. I'll have a similiar situation but they'll be priests of Bahamut and see what they do then.
The little Heathens! I would smite the hell out of them if I ever ran across them.
ill keep that in mind, I just might have a psychotic Avenger of Hoar, tracking them, looking for revenge against a perceived insult.
1e-2e 3e-4e?
No body has an opinion for Hoar's holy symbol for 4e? I notice in the campaign guide the holy symbols are made to look more like holy symbols, something a character would actually wear around their neck, as opposed to just symbols, but I'm not sure how Hoar's would translate over. I thought about just using the double faced coin, but that would look too much like Waukeen's. What is the story with that coin any way? Anybody know? Was there a coin minted in the Realms that looked like that? What's on the other side? A scratched up surface like Two-Face from Bat-Man? Any good artists on here that can make a proper Hoar symbol for 4e?
I do think some of the 4E Holy Symbols are stupid looking.
Yet its my Realms now, so Bane is back with the Black Hand.
But you know how people can get: "Thou shalt not deviate from the Most Holy of Cannon"...
You could use Bane's old Black Hand holding the Coin...
You know that is an excellent idea, especially seeing as how Bane's not using it any more. I just might go with that, if I can find somebody willing to draw it, or if I do a good enough job of photoshoping it together.
No body has an opinion for Hoar's holy symbol for 4e?
-I prefer the older version of his symbol. I don't like, nor understand the mindset for arbitrarily changing most of the newer symbols presented in the FRCG/FRPG.
I prefer the older version of his symbol. I don't like, nor understand the mindset for arbitrarily changing most of the newer symbols presented in the FRCG/FRPG.
I like some of the 4e ones, I like how they made them to look like pendants or something a character would wear, but yeah the symbols shouldnt change that much, like Bane using a dragon claw now? or Corellons use of a star like symbol? That makes no sense. Corellon has used that crescent moon for eons, and now all of a sudden he decides you know what im going to start using a star? Makes no sense. I dont mind if they jazz em up a little between editions, like Mystra's.
Just doesnt make any sense. Granted different churches probably have different variation of the symbols, but come on, besides i dont see how a picture of ones goddess dancing naked under the moon counts as a holy symbol!Heres another Hoar Symbol
Sweet! Thanks Sliversword. What is that one from any way, I haven't seen that one before.
Heres another Hoar Symbol
Sweet! Thanks Sliversword. What is that one from any way, I haven't seen that one before.
The 2e boxed set,although its black and white in that book. Not sure who colored it in, but who ever it was did a pretty good job. I found it online years ago.
The 2e boxed set,although its black and white in that book. Not sure who colored it in, but who ever it was did a pretty good job. I found it online years ago.
I thought this one was the 2e one?
or is that the 1e? That one is from the Powers and Pantheons book, which is a 2e book. I'm not sure which one came out first though, the boxed set or that book?It would be interesting to do a sort of cross reference of How many Realms years existed in each edition. The orginal boxed set came out during the tail end of 1e (I dont even want to know how long ago that was! something like 87?), so I would assume It had the fewer number of Realms years, off hand I dont remember the starting year. Obviously 2e started with the Time of Troubles, 1358 DR. And I belive 3e started in what 1372? Damn 2e had a pretty good run there, I never really realized it before. Gettin a little off topic here, this would probably be better suited for the history if the Realms thread,
18DELTA(CYRIC BE PRAISED!) :-p
Man, I miss Helm everytime I see this thread ;)
Well they do both start with H
I remember that, first time I got that quest I never finished it, found out who the other was and just give it to him.....
I still find it next to impossible to play any NWN's game (one and two), not counting Storm of Zehir, without being a Paladin of Hoar. A Paladin, a beacon of light and hope. Hoar, because of all of the trash talk, backstabbing and general BS that makes you cry for vengeance, or damn everyone to the nine hells and leave.
I did it for the moeny, and then after all is said and done; flip them the finger and leave.
too much a Merc.
I did it for the moeny, and then after all is said and done; flip them the finger and leave.
Well, you are a Helmite.