This is in the context of 3E. Do the planes described in the Campaign Setting correlate to the generic planes of the DMG/Manual of the Planes? I have been trying to find a list or something that breaks it down. I was to add some planar travel to my up-coming game, but the descriptions for the planes in the CS are pretty vague and seem to be limited to simply which deities may be present on them.
Thanks for any help...
The Planes of the Realms are unique to the Realms, but yeah you could easily match them up to the generic planes in Manual of the planes to give a better description to the Realms planes.
and that was one of a few minor reasons the MoP was epic fail.
all it described was the planes to the Quasi setting known as Points Of Light, and not any of the other realms.... well outside of sodebars. anyway...
Um, we are talking about 3E, not 4E...
Um, we are talking about 3E, not 4E...
well okay then
that was one of the reasons MoP 3.x version failed too
no realms planes
The Players Guide to Faerun had a whole chapter devoted to the planes of Faerun's Cosmology. It has some very nice summaries of what could be found on each plane. I have a lot of disparate lore regarding Faerun's cosmology, what planes are you interested in? I can post some material, references and maybe some links that could help you.
I thought the Great Tree cosmology was pretty wonderful, myself, and ran my players through many a planar adventure in Faerun's planes. If you have any questions I would be happy to help you out.
I like the Tree better than the Wheel anyway. I do like the Default Core Planes.
I know I am stealing the Feywild and Shadowfel for all my games.
I can't stand the great tree and think it needs to go away. Bring back the wheel. (Besides, changing the cosmology screws with the odd bits of 'so and so visited Oerth/wherever or visited from Oerth/wherever.' stuff and with some of the domains of the deities. Vhaeraun isn't going to hang around his friggin' mother's realm, for the love of Corellon. *facepalm*)
I can't stand the great tree and think it needs to go away. Bring back the wheel. (Besides, changing the cosmology screws with the odd bits of 'so and so visited Oerth/wherever or visited from Oerth/wherever.' stuff and with some of the domains of the deities. Vhaeraun isn't going to hang around his friggin' mother's realm, for the love of Corellon. *facepalm*)
I kinda like the Tree cosmology, really set the Realms apart from the other Worlds. The Great Wheel is nice too, though ive always preferred the Great Square from 1e.
Both the Tree and the Wheel have their place in my realms.
I especially like the Barrens of Doom and Despair because its the current (1374 DR) whereabouts of my favorite FR character. I like to ponder how & why this tymorran swordmaster rogue would survive the forboding place and come out as a shadowsmith assassin.
The Players Guide to Faerun had a whole chapter devoted to the planes of Faerun's Cosmology. It has some very nice summaries of what could be found on each plane. I have a lot of disparate lore regarding Faerun's cosmology, what planes are you interested in? I can post some material, references and maybe some links that could help you.
I thought the Great Tree cosmology was pretty wonderful, myself, and ran my players through many a planar adventure in Faerun's planes. If you have any questions I would be happy to help you out.
Of course, the one book i didn't look in. Thank you. That pretty much answered my original question. At the moment it appears that I am most interested in Brightwater - as Tymora will be a major force in my campaign. Any ideas or references you have to there would be appreciated.
The astral plane is a bit esoteric in the Great Tree format, but it makes sense. Still, what about the astral plane itself, as opposed to just a method of travel... Is there still the timeless grey expanse in Toril, where the gythanki would live etc...? Considering a "channeled astral plane", would you have to cast the spell (plane shift/astral projection) intending to travel directly to the astral plane to access it?
At the moment it appears that I am most interested in Brightwater - as Tymora will be a major force in my campaign. Any ideas or references you have to there would be appreciated.
Sure! It happens that I actually wrote a travelogue about Brightwater for the Candlekeep Compendium, it might be useful to you. Check it out here: www.candlekeep.com/compendium/Candlekeep... even though it was written in a storytelling/travelogue style, all known facts about Brightwater were compiled from canon sources, and then I extrapolated the rest based on educated guesses.
In addition, there are a number of planar articles in other issues of the Candlekeep Compendium that you might be interested in. You can download them from this link here: www.candlekeep.com/compendium/index.htm some of them have maps. Brian James has a lot of planar lore in his forgotten realms articles for Dragon magazine. His Auril article is particularly keen. Check it out here: www.wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx?x=dnd/d...
The astral plane is a bit esoteric in the Great Tree format, but it makes sense. Still, what about the astral plane itself, as opposed to just a method of travel... Is there still the timeless grey expanse in Toril, where the gythanki would live etc...? Considering a "channeled astral plane", would you have to cast the spell (plane shift/astral projection) intending to travel directly to the astral plane to access it?
The Astral Plane was essentially the same, same silver void, the Githyanki lived there, most everything that applied to the Great Wheel Astral applied to Faerun's Astral. The channeled Astral concept was introduced in the 3e Manual of the Planes, and that one feature was selected by the 3E FR design team to apply to Toril's Astral Plane.
Essentially, the idea was that when you cast a spell that utilized the Astral to transit to another plane, you had to name your exit plane and that was the only plane to which you could leave the Astral. You could spend as much time in the Astral as you wanted, but while you were there, only color pools that lead to your named destination plane would be available to you. And then when you left an outer plane, the only destination you could name was Toril's Prime Material Plane. If you wanted to travel from, say Brightwater to Arvandor, you had to first travel to the Prime Material and then recast your spell to go back through to Arvandor. Toril was thus the crossroads of the cosmology and extra planar beings would often materialize in Toril on their way to some other planar destination.
There were some ways around this. The Blood River (Styx) and the Celestial Tree (Yggdrasil) could let you travel between planes without passing through Toril. There were also portals, planar rifts, planar breaches, soft borders, chaos ships, certain special spells, and several other methods for bypassing Toril. But the regular plane shift spell and Astral travel were supposed to work in the channeled fashion. There is some info about how it works in the intro to the planes chapter of the Players Guide to Faerûn.
But aside from that, use any lore you like regarding the Astral from other planar sources or Planescape books, no reason that the vast majority of that lore wouldn't also fit Toril's Astral. I am especially fond of the Guide to the Astral Plane, which is a great resource for the Astral, if you don't have it already.
Does the Realms have its own Astral Sea and Elemental Chaos or do all D&D worlds share the same planes?
Officially, it's own. Although, as a DM you are free to change this. You might think of FR's astral domains as an archipelago in a vast sea. It may be possible for you to sail beyond the archipelago for a very, very far distance, and encounter another cluster of Astral domains that represent the cosmology of another world, such as Greyhawk or Eberron. Spelljamming still exists, as does phlogiston, which connects the disparate worlds and cosmologies of the D&D universe. These cosmologies are connected in other ways such as the portals of Sigil, planar rifts, planar breaches, gates, soft borders, special artifacts, etc.
Are these planes are part of Realmspace?
Not exactly, Realmspace is a volume of Material Plane space contained in a crystal sphere a little larger than the diameter of Toril's solar system. Toril's crystal sphere floats in the Phlogiston, which may or may not be a manifestation of the Shadow Plane as it is perceived in the area that is coterminous with whatever area exists outside of crystal spheres. Or more accurately, the Material Plane ends at the boundaries of the crystal sphere, and what lies outside is the Shadow Plane, which is perceived as the Phlogiston. The Shadowfell may be that region of the Shadow Plane that is coterminous with Toril. But this is unexplored so far under 4e rules.
Does Abeir have its own Shadowfell and Feywild?
No definite answer, except that Rich Baker has expressed the opinion on the Boards that Abeir and Toril may share the same planar cosmology. Abeir and Toril inhabit two alternate material planes that are separated by a planar barrier of some kind. You could surmise that they do share the same planar cosmology, or you could decide that they have a duplicate alternate cosmology that may resemble, in part Toril's planes, with some notable differences. For instance, Dragon Eyrie and the Mulhorand pantheon's Heliopolis might still exist in Abeir's cosmology, and draconic deities might be way more abundant, or even dominant among the gods of Abeir.
Does Abeir still exist in Realmspace, or is it Abeirspace?
It is an alternate material plane. It has never been charted on a Spelljamming map that I have seen. Perhaps, though, it has its own crystal sphere that orbits in synchrony with Toril's, like a double-star system, floating in tandem in the flow of the Phlogiston. But if so there might need to be some explanation as to why such a neighboring crystal sphere has not been noticed to date. Perhaps some illusion cast by Leira similar to how she hid the true surface of Selûne. Alternatively you might see Abeir and Toril as coterminous with one another occupying the same metaphysical space, but slightly out of phase with one another. Abeir might then actually be within Toril's crystal sphere, just out of phase with Toril. Under that scenario it would be unclear if you could spelljam from Toril to a neighboring planet within Realmspace or if Ao cloned the entire solar system to be out of phase along with Abeir. This lore has just not been established as far as I know so far in 4e.
Im just wondering if you were on Abeir in a Spelljamming vessel and left Abeir where would you end up?
If I were deciding, I would say that Ao duplicated all of Toril's crystal sphere, an exact physical clone of all the planets as they existed at the time of the cloning. He pushed Abeir into an alternate material plane that is coterminous with Toril's crystal sphere but out of phase with Toril along some other-dimensional axis.
He then gathered all the gods and primordials together in the hall of Cynosure and made them sign a compact, perhaps a portion of the Tablets of Ao, and then choose souls to populate each world, using complex rules negotiated by Ao between the parties, but which may have looked like captains choosing up teams for an incomprehensibly massive highschool soccer game. Those beings that were aligned with gods ended up in Realmspace, those aligned with Primordials ended up in Abeirspace. Obviously the majority of dragons and giants ended up in Abeirspace, but obviously some stayed behind, and likewise many humans and demihumans ended up in Abeirspace. This division may have extended to the other planets of Realmspace. Although it is conceivable that those planets may have ended up unpopulated, in Abeirspace. I don't know if the war extended as far as the populations of the other planets in Realmspace. Although, if I put my mind to it, there are probably some wonderful stories to be told about what the Divine/Primoridal war was like on each of the other planets in Realmspace.
I would imagine that Abeir might have started out with no links to Toril's Astral, and may not even have had an Astral plane of its own, but that perhaps one formed over time by the collective beliefs and psychic energies of Abeir's inhabitants, especially those who fostered a belief in gods. So I figure Abeir eventually formed its own Astral that looks different from Toril's.
However, I see Abeir being connected to the same Shadowfell and Feywild as Toril, as those already have properties that are similar to a material plane. In fact in 1e they were called the positive material plane and the negative material plane (later changed to the positive energy plane and the negative energy plane) as opposed to the Prime Material Plane where the campaign world was set. Now technically the Shadow Plane was originally something else, possibly a demi-plane or some sort of fourth type of material plane that reflected the interplay of light and darkness where the Negative Material Plane and the Positive Material Plane intersected, but I digress. As of 4e the negative energy plane and the Shadow Plane have been folded into the Shadowfell, presumably by Shar I think is the official explanation.
Would you be in another plane like the Shadowfell or is there an Abeirspace?
I think if you used a spelljammer to leave Abeir, you would be in the wildspace that exists within the boundaries of Abeir's crystal sphere and you could fly to the cloned worlds of Glyth, H'Catha, etc.--or whatever names they go by--within Abeir's solar system.
Were you to leave Abeir's crystal sphere, my guess is you would find yourself in the Phlogiston, the one and only Phlogiston, which I believe is an extension of the Shadowfell, aka the Shadow Plane as it exits outside the crystal sphere. And to support this lore I rely on the 3e Manual of the Planes which established that the Shadow Plane was the primary way to travel between alternate material planes and cosmologies.
Or what about other planets in Realmspace? I would assume they they all have Shadowfells and Feywilds too.
My take is that the Feywild has a "feyspace" that is coterminous with Toril's solar system (and also Abeir's solar system) and that you could spelljam within the Feywild to the feywilds of H'Catha, Glyth, Anadia, Coliar, etc. I believe there is also a shadowspace, that leads to shadowfell versions of those planets as well. However, you may not need to shadowjam within the Shadowfell, as the rules of travel there may be quite different, and using certain spells you might be able to shadowalk for vast distances without the aid of a ship, maybe even vertically up into shadowspace... you might even be able to shadowalk to Shadow-Coliar, etc. I have conceived that the Shadowfell may have a region of Deep Shadow that is used for Shadow-walking and for inter-cosmology travel, which is analogous to the concept of the Deep Ethereal from prior editions.
I have conceived that the Shadowfell may have a region of Deep Shadow that is used for Shadow-walking and for inter-cosmology travel, which is analogous to the concept of the Deep Ethereal from prior editions.
Yes I like it! That does make alot of sense. I think I might use that as well.
And ive been sittin here thinkin on Abeirspace, at first I wasnt so sure that such a thing existed, I was just thinking that just Toril was cloned, and Abeir existed alone as its own demiplane, but after thinking on it im starting to see it now, after all Abeir didnt exist in total darkness, so it probably has a sun that it orbits as well, so yeah I agree, Ao just didnt clone Toril, but all of Realmspace. IM still a little unsure of how to fit Abeir into the cosmology as far as the Astral Sea and Shadowfell are concerened. It would make sense for there to be an overlap with the Realmspace cosmology. I might be thinking to hard on this, it is a fantasy world after all, and it doesnt necessarily have to make sense, and the planes and gods exist beyond mortal understanding so it may be impossible to come up with an absolute answer.
If Abeir does share the same Shadowfell as Toril it seems like travel between the two would be more frequent, they way it is in the book, they are very separate and only overlap very rarely. Hopefully we'll see some more info on Abeir, and the other Realms planes in general, Theres enough to work with there for them to make a Manual of the Planes book dedicated solely on the Realms cosmology.
The two planetoids Toril and Abeir would normally be out of phase when they collide (once in a year) but they went into and out of each others phase with potentially disastrous transposing and colliding effects.
Very nice musings on Abeirspace Gray, but I think it would make sense that Abeir's crystal sphere was copied with the intention that the primordials could rule over it absolutely (or more easily). It would have had a cosmology with a stronger connection to the elemental chaos (if you look at the picture you see its natural surface is a lot more grey and ashen, which I can Imagine would happen on a elemental dominated planet). This could mean that its shadowfell didn't transition the souls towards the Fugue, an astral domain of Kelemvor, but towards the Abyss or somekind of elemental shard in the Elemental Chaos functioning as a soul collecter for use as sustenance of Primordial archlords.
Ao might have been able to shunt Abeirspaces dimension in a place floating above or trough the elemental chaos. Abeirs sun, stars and a moon (or two) could very well be closer to the natural world than in Toril as in D&D these orbital elements ususally are essences built from the elemental planes. I think that the elemental nature of Abeir clearly shows in its genasi, draconic and elemental giant inhabitants, who would be able to thrive in such a more rugged place.
Abeir could have an empty astral sea as it would have a lack of those island domains the gods typically reside in. And like Gray said some could have been formed afterwards; some comparatively "tiny" isolated domains could drift in the astral, having been formed later on through the importation during the phaseshift or by evolution of new religions and gods during Abeirs history.
In my eyes the Feywild or the plane of Fearie is slightly problematic though. As I see it the Feywild enveloped Torils natural world upon which it copied or adapted much of its geography. Ancient Abeir might have been used as a blueprint aswell so that could explain why the Feywild has very different actual topography. Its copy blended both Toril and Abeirs geographic locations into a magically primal natural place inbetween to two.
But another intriguing possibility is that Abeir may not have had a weave at all if there was not any corresponding god (or primordial) to control it. If so, then the inhabitants of Abeir may have developed 4e style magic long ago and been knowledgeable about how to access raw magic without a weave for millennia. If that's the case, then it could have been the dragonborn and other inhabitants of Abeir that crossed over during the Spellplague that gave Faerûnians insights and secrets into accessing raw magic and allowed them to rediscover and rebuild the discipline of using the art of magic very quickly, in less than a century.
If so, then had some magically adept Abeirians not crossed over, perhaps Faerûn would still be in a magical dark age to this day, with little to no knowledge of how to access the raw mystical forces present in the world in the absence of a weave.
Of course, I have always felt strongly that Mystril was just the human aspect/alias of the god of magic. For Ed Greenwood, Lurue was originally his goddess of magic. Of course, before humans existed Mystril was an entity that did not have human form, per se, and may have been venerated by the creator races under an aspect appropriate to the conception of the people who worshiped her. For instance, Mystril may have been worshiped by the undersea aquatic creator race (the forebears of the Batrachi, prior to their transformation into land-dwelling frog people) as some sort of silver octopus. The Sarrukh were monotheists, while some view the World Serpent as a distinct god, I think he may have been a gestalt deity, kind of like the Adama, where all the portfolios of all the gods were wrapped up in one concept and worshiped collectively as the World Serpent, so for the Sarrukh, the World Serpent was an aspect of Mystril, but also inclued Chauntea, Amaunator, etc. Just a theory... Anyway, for the Fey creator race, the Leshay, I like to think Mystril was worshipped as Lurue. Or actually, the other way around, humans worshipped Lurue under the guise of Mystril. My feeling is that Mystril and Lurue are either the same deity or are fragments of the original god of magic that have become separate with time (in the way that plants bud off from each other to form new plants, or in the way that amoeba split by mitosis), and because gods in the same pantheon cannot have the same portfolio, the Lurue fragment, as she became known to humans through their interaction with elves and fey, and became re-incorporated into the Faerunian pantheon as a separate entity, lost the magic portfolio to the other fragment of herself. But I digress. The point I am trying to make is that I don't know to what extent Lurue was known in the Feywild. I think Mystril might not have governed the weave of the Feywild, not sure if it had a weave, but if Lurue was known there then it might be evidence that the Feywild had a weave and that the influence of Mystril was exercised on that weave under the guise of Lurue, her fey aspect. But for all we know, Lurue may have only been a god of the Material Plane fey that lived on Toril, and Lurue may or may not have been known in the Feywild.
All this is to say that, I think it possible that perhaps the Feywild did not have a weave, and that it was filled with raw magic that was accessible without a weave using the peculiar magics that were known to the Fey of the Feywild. Note that the Fey that came to Toril form Tintageer, the Sun and Moon elves (aka the eladrin) had different magical practices, such as their version of epic magic and cooperative magic that was very different from the magical "technology" known to the Netherese, which had come down to them from the Batrachi, Aearee, and Sarrukh through the Nether Scrolls, a compendium of the magical lore of the elder races compiled by the Ba'etith, a magical society or guiding council that sought to pass on and perpetuate magical knowledge, probably at the behest of Mystril/Lurue/Silver Octopus/World Serpent. The Ba'etith fulfilled the same function in the Days of Thunder as Mystril's "chosen" or "magisters" do in the modern era.
But I keep digressing. To sum up. My impression is that the Weave did not extend to the Feywild or the Shadowfell. But, I need to research this as Ed Greenwood, I think, has mentioned something to the effect that the Weave did not extend to the Planes, but I am not sure if I am remembering it correctly, and vaguely recollected lore is a dangerous thing. I actually think there is an answer one way or another in established lore how far the Weave extended to the other planes, if it did so at all.
Thanks Grey.
I just asked Ed at Loremaster...I hope he answers with out the dreaded NDA phrase...
It will be interesting to see his answer. hopefully he'll get around to it soon. I know he has been very busy lately.
So Abeir, the Feywild, and the Shadowfell all have their own "Weave". So it would make sense that perhaps the Abeirians were already using the 4e style of magic and brought it over with them, like Gray suggested.
Ed answered your question Delta!
So Abeir, the Feywild, and the Shadowfell all have their own "Weave". So it would make sense that perhaps the Abeirians were already using the 4e style of magic and brought it over with them, like Gray suggested.
Thank you for stealing MY thunder Sharbait!
My bad, im sorry, i was just so jazzed about it. Interesting stuff. Ed is the man! He explained it very well. Now ask him if Abeir has its own Shadowfell or shares Torils.
And its Sharbait now? I thought it was Shadebait? Oh well at least I got me a nickname! I feel like one of the gang now!
would Sigil even be accessible from Abeir? Sigil is supposed to connect with evey world and plane out there, so it would make sense that there was a connection, but they way they describe it, Abeir seems to be very isolated, its the forgotten Forgotten Realms.
Given that Sigil had connections to Athas (Dark Sun) and even more isolated places, yes it makes sense (if you used Abeir in a campaign). Sigil's portals could connect anywhere, including inside of places like a god's deific domain, an exception to the normal rules of such things.
My bad, im sorry, i was just so jazzed about it. Interesting stuff. Ed is the man! He explained it very well. Now ask him if Abeir has its own Shadowfell or shares Torils.
And its Sharbait now? I thought it was Shadebait? Oh well at least I got me a nickname! I feel like one of the gang now!
Its ok Zealous one of Shade...
Post from Ed, from Loremaster
You're welcome. :}
I'm not sure when the final Falconfar book (entitled "Falconfar") will appear, because Rebellion bought Solaris from Black Library. However, Simon & Schuster seems to now have it being released in March 2010, in North America.
As for the Feywild and Abeir having a Weave, the answer is: yes and no.
I'm not trying to be funny or evade the question.
Here's why I say both: the Feywild and Abeir, like the Realms we've long known about, have the same sorts of natural forces (wind energy, solar, tides and flowing water, convection currents, gravity, the kinetic energy of soil creep, continental drift and rising and falling tectonic plates and vulcanism, the chemical energies of all flora and fauna, and so on). What was dubbed "The Weave" in Faerun was a way of harnessing these energies, a means of calling on them to power specific effects (spell results). It was a trial-and-error-developed means of making things happen. Divine magic is one set of means, arcane magic another, and "the Weave" was a shorthand term for (one way of) understanding how to connect with and control all of these natural energies.
So the Feywild and Abeir will have their own "Weaves," akin to that of the Realms but subtly different, that may well be called something else locally.
As to those differences, it's something like going to a distant country and trying to plug your toaster into an electrical socket on the wall and discovering the plug won't even fit - - and if you do get it in, the toaster will probably catch fire or blow a fuse. You are encountering an electrical system, yes, but it works differently than the one you're used to. You can readily learn how to use the new local system if you had familiarity with your own system, but if you try to blunder or bull ahead without allowing for the differences, the results are going to be disappointing, perhaps spectacularly so.
Or to put it another way, a Weave is like the Linnaean method of cataloguing living things (Latin species names, divisions into genus, phyla, family, and so forth). There are other ways of cataloguing those same living things, and they aren't altered merely by being catalogued one way or another.
Heh. And just like real-world science and/or classification systems, wizards (and priests) in the Realms can get in to all sorts of arguments over the Weave.
As can gamers, in forum discussions. :}
I have already asked ED a question, to contribute to this thread. Now its your turn...
Given that Sigil had connections to Athas (Dark Sun) and even more isolated places, yes it makes sense (if you used Abeir in a campaign). Sigil's portals could connect anywhere, including inside of places like a god's deific domain, an exception to the normal rules of such things.
Yeah good point! Sigil is the hub of it all and connects to everywhere. There was the Infinite Staircase too that connected Toril to just about everywhere too, including Sigil. So it would make sense that the infinite Staircase would connect with Abeir as well.
I have already asked ED a question, to contribute to this thread. Now its your turn...
Ok its asked. Hopefull he'll reply back. He never did answer my last question.
Great. Hopefully he answers.
The Infinite Staircase similarly connected to cities throughout the Multiverse, even to alternate realities and some places thought to be imaginary. I believe, though, it only connects to buildings--architecture that was crafted by a creative consciousness. It would surely connect to Abeir, but the portal would have to lead to a city, or at least a place that had a building.
The World Serpent Inn is another place that connects to other planes, worlds, times and realities. The World Serpent Inn is seemingly a quiet little tavern, but its back rooms are an extensive, perhaps infinite labyrinth with portals leading to all worlds and all times. Oh, and gods from all pantheons and cosmologies like to drop in, kick back and have a drink there. You could go there and have a conversation with a god and not ever know it. Eric Boyd has hinted that the World Serpent Inn is the former plane where the World Serpent resided, his astral dominion, and the "heaven" of the Sarrukh, but it no longer looks like a Sarrukh paradise. It is hinted that the bartender is an exarch or possibly an avatar of the World Serpent himself.
The Celestial Tree, Yggdrasil, exists in all universes and Ed Greenwood has suggested that they all connect, so that it might be possible to travel from world to world by scrambling along its branches.
Likewise the River of Blood, the Styx, is connected to all the other Styxes in the multiverse (per Ed) and one might be able to traverse the Multiverse, at least the evil planes therein, by sailing the Styx and performing certain rituals or following certain tributaries to their sources.
I don't gather that Ao was playing favorites. But then again, I could be wrong. Perhaps Ao favors gods over primordials. Not sure if the segregation of the two worlds was "separate but equal" or if Ao gave Abeir the short end of the stick in some ways.
I don't think he was trying to cut off Abeir, specifically. Just separate the two. Like a parent would separate squabbling kids in the back seat of a car.
Right that does make sense. So travel from Abeir to Toril and vice-versa is definately possible, if one new the right way, or got extremly lucky in the World Serpent Inn, being that its portals and destinations were always random, IIRC.
Perhaps Ao even favors Abeir over Toril. He did get less headaches from the Abeiran dimension of the Forgotten Realms as he had to step in and reprimand the Gods of Toril during the Time of Troubles. Or did the Primordial lords also needed some firm reminders now and then....?
Well the Elemental Lords were never cast out during the Time of Troubles, or maybe Ao cast them out to Abeir?
And Ed answered my questions about Abeir's Shadowfell & Feywild on loremaster.org
"All of the planes are interlinked, in ways most mortals don't fully understand. There are periodic gates between them, they temporarily and in different places impinge on each other (so one can walk "through the mists" from one to another, often without realizing it or in a different place from where such a walk was possible previously. Then there are more or less permanent gate/portal "hubs" like Sigil, ways in which some planes can "jump" travellers into another plane when certain spells are used or rifts or other planar phenomena develop, and so on. I would say the Shadowfell and Feywild accessed by Abeir and Toril are the same planes, but the two worlds access them in vastly different places.
How one might travel depends on the purpose, urgency, and nature of the trip (if you see what I mean)."
So I would say that this confirms the exsistence of Feyspace and Shadowspace.
He also ansered my question regarding Abeirspace, which sadly looks like it does not exsist.
"If you spelljammed up off Abeir, where you found yourself would depend on WHEN you left the surface of Abeir.
If it was immediately before, during, or after its "collision/passing through/intersection with" Toril, you would be in Realmspace (in probably very dangerous "weather" of bursts of spontaneous, uncontrolled lightning, vortices of destructive winds, wild magic, and other hairy, ferocious and everchanging side-effects of the two worlds "passing through" each other).
If it was long before or well after that time (more than a perhaps six months or so, either way), you'd find yourself lost in the phlogiston...somewhere. (I.e. up to your DM what the nearest crystal spheres would be.) Or in another dimension altogether (again, according to your DM's desires)."
So, trying to wrap my brain around that. Was there just a big black void up in the sky? What did they do for a sun? Did they see stars in their night sky? Could they see the same sky as Toril? Kind of like the way that ethereal beings could peer into the material plane? (back when there was an Ethereal Plane...) Was Abeir lit by Toril's sun? What about the moon? And planets? Or did they indeed have a black void, but it looked like a normal sky to the Abeirans due to some kind of massive, epic illusion--like the one that cloaks the surface of Selûne? Reminds me a little of Tekumel, come to think of it.
From what Ed describes, if you spelljammed up off of Abeir, you popped out into the phlogiston. So I guess you could just leave the area described by the pocket dimension and fall out into outer space (that is, the phlogiston, the area between crystal spheres). Except for a period where Abeir was "in phase" with Toril and they "passed through" each other during the Spellplague, during which period then spelljamming up off Abeir would find yourself in the Wild Space inside the boundaries of Toril's Crystal Sphere. But it sounds like Abeir's pocket dimension did not have a hard border, or shell, per se.
So in a sense, it sounds like Abeir's cosmic situation was actually somewhat different from Toril's. It does not seem like Ao gave them equal treatment. They sound like they were definitely sequestered from Toril and Realmspace, although, not from the rest of the universe as the pocket dimension was not closed off completely. Sounds like they were/are free to come and go as they will and visit other Crystal Spheres. Maybe even would find themselves floating near Toril's crystal sphere and could access Realmspace by spelljammer... though how to get back to Abeir by spelljammer is another question... Was there a void they could sail in to? A misty region in space? A marker of some kind? Or could people just see Abeir floating there some how. OR, was it a one way trip? If you left Abeir by spelljammer, could you ever get back? Very intriguing...
Maybe Ao did favor the gods and god worshipers if this is so. It seems like Torilians retained access to Realmspace after the spellplague and the Abeirans got a tiny little pocket dimension. Sounds like the Abeirans had a lousy lawyer at the divorce hearing!
So, trying to wrap my brain around that. Was there just a big black void up in the sky? What did they do for a sun? Did they see stars in their night sky? Could they see the same sky as Toril? Kind of like the way that ethereal beings could peer into the material plane? (back when there was an Ethereal Plane...) Was Abeir lit by Toril's sun? What about the moon? And planets? Or did they indeed have a black void, but it looked like a normal sky to the Abeirans due to some kind of massive, epic illusion--like the one that cloaks the surface of Selûne? Reminds me a little of Tekumel, come to think of it.
Im not sure what Abeir did for a sun. Sounds like another question for Ed! Maybe they had a sort of dimensional echo of Toril's sun, and stars. Or maybe the Primordials supply sunlight to the planet? Maybe they dont have a sun, they have an ancient flaming Primordial flying around the planet?
Heh, Eds raised even more questions with his answer hasnt he?
We know the following about the Steelsky:
- It is metalic-hued
- It boils into dark-green and copper hued clouds
- It does not obscure sunlight, moonlight, or stars
- It is composed of the residual energy of Arambar
- Arambar was a Dawn Titan of vast power
- Arambar appears to (now) be dead
Okay, so let's consider for a moment what might have happened if Abeir got kicked out of Toril's dimensional coordinates into a pocket dimension. Not sure if this was bargained for by the Primordials. Perhaps Ao kicked them out of Realmspace in anger, desperation, or frustration. Or perhaps he demanded the Primordials and Gods meet at Cynosure and negotiate a treaty to end the war.
It is conceivable that the Primordials got exactly what they bargained for, but perhaps bargained badly. Maybe the Gods snowed them, being a little more thoughtful and sophisticated. Maybe the Primordials asked for their own planet and didn't think beyond the surface, so didn't expect to end up with a dark void for a sky, with no sun to warm the plants or light to see by. And there are certainly fairy tales and legends where gods and heroes make deals with giants or ogres and such where the giant thought he was getting a good deal and ended up being tricked. So its possible the Dawn Titans chose the situation but just chose poorly. But then again, maybe they weren't given a choice. Ao could have done it by fiat.
Anyway, assuming Abeir ended up in a black void (we don't know that it did, but that is the working assumption) then the primordials would have to provide something. Presumably, the Steelsky was the final result. We don't know if it was the initial solution.
Just for comparison, in Tolkien's mythos, the world was originally lit by the fires of creation, and when they died out the Valar lit the world by two giant lamps on pillars that were eventually pulled down by Melkor. To replace them the Valar grew twin trees, a silver one and a golden one, that lit the world for a time before Ungoliant poisoned them. The Valar made the sun and moon from the last fruit and flower from the two trees.
So Abeir is plunged into darkness. If the Primordials had realized that was going to be the case they might have planned for it and crafted a solution. However, I kinda like the idea that they weren't expecting it, panicked, and had to react quick. Perhaps this Arambar (hmmm... Arambar, Grumbar... any relation I wonder?) sacrificed his life to create a sky to give life and light to the world. It's metalic hue makes me think he might have been a draconic-style primordial of a metallic bent. Perhaps a sibling, or son to Bahamut. Alternatively he might have been a twin of Grumbar, the Earth Lord, as a "soil and sky" duality suggests itself. They might have had a Zeus, Hades & Poseidon type brotherhood trinity going on.
Of course, all we really know is that Arambar is dead now. So perhaps he was alive until recently. Maybe he was killed in the Spellplague, and the Steelsky is the residue from his death. Maybe prior to that, Arambar simply installed himself in the sky as Abeir's sun--in the same fashion as Amaunator was Toril's sun (with whom Arambar could have had some kind of rivalry, back in the day, before or during the War).
Or maybe he is still alive in Abeir, but "dead" in Returned Abeir, where, cut off from Abeir proper, the memory of his vast power still lights the sky.
Hey, maybe Arambar was not set in the sky, but was some colossal titan, many miles high, that shone like a sun and walked the surface of Abeir eternally, shedding light and warmth, taking 24 hours to walk the circumference of Abeir each day, in great strides, his burning footprints scorching a desert around Abeir's equator where none dare cross. Or maybe Arambar sailed a ship around the perpetually boiling "ring sea" that circumscribes Abeir's globe. (that one would still preserve the sea, sky and soil trinity--assuming there is one--if Arambar gets the sea, possibly also in combination with the sky; of course it could have just been a sea & soil duality). Arambar doesn't even have to look human. He could have been a dragon that flies around the skies. Or a great, rolling orb that tumbles across the surface of Abeir. Maybe he looks like a giant, rolling, fiery eyeball. Or a crab. Or a really fast snail...
Of course, maybe there was no single initial solution to Abeir's darkness. Maybe the Primordials, being a willful and divisive lot, each originally championed different lighting solutions. There could have been competing suns, lamps, glowing empyrean shells, fiery trees, volcanoes, burning towers, balefires, celestial jewels, roving titan torch-bearers, etc. Heck, maybe this devolved into its own war, a war that "burned the sky", before some final solution ultimately prevailed. Maybe Arambar was instrumental in resolving that conflict and was invested, or usurped for himself, the duty to light Abeir. Or perhaps this was the moment when Arumbar was killed, or sacrificed himself, and his body was used to form the Steelsky, in the same way that Ymir's skull became the sky, Ouranos' corpse became the heavens, or that Anu/Enlil/Marduk crafted the vault of the heavens from the ribs of Tiamat.
Lots of great potential here for myth and story. I really like the idea that Abeir ended up in a void, and something creative had to happen to light the sky. In fact, I think I will be sad if the official lore gets revealed to be something more mundane.
Kossuth, Ishtishia, Grumbar and Akadi, i.e. the primordials that held relations with Toril even after the seperation of Abeir from Toril could have been exiles or refuge seekers from Abeir when such an Epic war was taking place. It could also be that they are proof of elemental pathways (pathways through the Elemental Chaos) that lingered to and from Abeir and Toril. Summoning techniques that bring forth elementals perhaps unknowingly tapped on lost Abeir, and were perfected by Raumathari mages when they summoned that Avatar of Kossuth to Toril during the Great Conflagration against the Nar armies.
anyway Ed was kind to tell what Elminster's greatest regret over his life was...
its problely NDA... or the question was misplaced....
anyway Ed was kind to tell what Elminster's greatest regret over his life was...
Well Im asumming the Steelsky takes the place of a Sun in Abeir, I think Ed just got sick of my Abeir questions. I might rephrase it and ask again, or you could ask...
Well Toril has stars in its night time sky doesn't it? So what are those stars? Realmspace is just that one solor system, so how could they fit more stars in that Crystal Sphere? They're just there. Its magic okay? I think you're putting too much though into this and trying to equate Realmspace to a real world solar system, which its not.
The steelsky environment of Abeir could possibly have no light dark cycle whatsoever. A perpetual grey light could sustain what possible elemental plantlife there is on Abeir. Stars and other celectial bodies fall within the portfolios of the gods so its possible that they are lacking in Abeir. They might be there beyond the pocketplane but highly obscured from vision, like looking through murky glass. It would likely look a bit like this pic below; vague clues from celestial activity could be deduced but most would be impossible to follow.
Ra and his highly sun dependant worship would have to fight through the steelsky barrier to reach his faithful Mulhorandi people. Its far more likely that the Mulhorandi, Mazticans and Untheric people are doomed and forsaken on Abeir. I doubt they would survive with a barren and sunless world like that, especially without divine aid.
Well, we don't know for sure if the Steelsky had a light/dark cycle, but it could well have. It might have flared up to a burnished, glowing copper color at dawn, rippling liquid gold at noon, a cooler silver in the late afternoon, fading to a shimmering verdigris at dusk before darkening to a deep metallic cobalt to serve as their night sky. My imagination envisages a cross between the Aurora Borealis and the multicolored skyscapes from that 80's Flash Gordon movie. Of course, that is just one possible idea. I do like the picture you posted.
Anyways, it got me to thinking about running my players through an adventure where they revisit the plane of mirrors (through the looking glass and all) and I see a potential tie in with the Red Knight (or her church) somehow. They had been to the Plane of Mirrors once before, where they foiled a plot by the Nerra to replace key personages in Suzail with Nerra doppelgangers for nefarious purposes. The players traveled through a mirror to a Nerra cathedral/nexus and freed the imprisoned nobles and merchants. And it's been enough time that I could pull some of the plot threads left dangling from that adventure back into the story.
I don't want to rip off Carroll, exactly, and I don't really see the Plane of Mirrors as an analog to Carroll's looking glass realm, but I think one could certainly use elements from Carroll, subtly, as a nod. Maybe use the names of chess pieces as ranks, or as titles of nobility, or code names for key NPCs. Or have a puzzle challenge involving a room with a black & white tiled floor requiring movement in specific patterns, like chess moves. I am also intrigued with the idea of using armies or factions representing the four suits of a card deck--or maybe Tarot suits. There might be an encounter with a Jabberwock, or evil twins, or a caterpillar (glass carrion crawler?), Cheshire displacer beasts? Cheshire weretigers? Or teleporting rakshasas? But hopefully I can swing it so the adventure is steeped in wonder, and not corny or too derivative.
There's not much about the Plane of Mirrors. There was a write-up on it in the 3e Manual of the Planes, and it was populated by the Nerra, a race of mirror people, who were described in the 3e Fiend Folio. My previous adventure involving the Nerra and the Plane of Mirrors was based mostly on that material.
However, there was indeed some material about the Plane of Mirrors in the Tales from the Infinite Staircase module, which gives it a firm link to the Realms cosmology.
I found this nifty post on the Planewalker site that explains more about the Kamarel and the 2e lore regarding the Plane of Mirrors at this link here: www.planewalker.com/forum/kamarel-and-pl...
So any way how would the Plane of Mirrors fit in with the 4e cosmology? Astral Domain?
Now that I think about it, because the Mirror Plane is tied to reflected light, it might have a deeper connection to the cosmology than previously suspected.
In the 1e Manual of the Planes, the Plane of Shadow is described as a demiplane in the Ethereal, composed of equal parts of the Negative and Positive Material Planes (later to become the Negative and Positive Energy Planes in 2e). The Plane of Shadow, then, seemed to be spawned from the interplay between light and darkness from the Negative and Positive material planes. In 3e, though, Shadow become a full-fledged transitive plane in its own right that extended beyond the cosmos, connecting alternate worlds. In 4e, the Shadow plane has subsumed the Negative Energy Plane and the Ethereal to become the Shadowfell.
All this is to say that the Plane of Mirrors, which is a transitive plane, associated with reflected light, might have some more intimate connection to the Plane of Shadow (aka the Shadowfell), the Positive & Negative Material Planes (now subsumed into the Feywild and Shadowfell respectively) and by extension with the Feywild.
What that connection is, I am not sure. Perhaps the Plane of Mirrors is a "layer" of the Shadow Plane--if transitive planes can even have layers. Or perhaps some sort of anti-Shadowplane--like a photographic negative of the Shadowplane (makes me think back to math class, where a negative number multiplied by a negative number is a positive amount, but the square root of a negative number is imaginary). Or maybe the Plane of Mirrors is a complement to the Plane of Shadows in that it is a reflection of the Material Plane at the border between the Material Plane and the Positive Energy Plane. I haven't yet sussed out the metaphysics. The mind boggles. But I think there is something there to explore.
So for every shadow, there should be a corresponding reflection/or image created from the reflected light. Not sure how that works with respect to the 4e metaphysics, seeing as both the Negative Energy Plane and the Shadow Plane have been subsumed into the Shadowfell--with perhaps a little ethereal thrown in for good measure. I suppose the Positive Energy Plane has been subsumed by the Feywild, but this is less clear. I figure the Feywild also has a bit of the Spirit Plane thrown in (from the 3e Manual of the Planes) to boot.
Perhaps I am over thinking it. You don't really have to figure out the metaphysical geometry of the cosmos to have fun adventuring in the Mirror Plane. But half the fun for me is thinking about such things.
I haven't read through the whole book yet, but looks like it is filled with with tons of interesting encounters and plot threads to keep my campaign filled with planar goodness. I think this is my favorite WotC book this year!
The Plane Below came out today, and I thought it was pretty darn spiffy. Lots of really great stuff in there! If you are a font geek like me, you might particularly like page 53 which has the new Barazhad script, the alphabet of the Primordial language. It looks awesome!
I haven't read through the whole book yet, but looks like it is filled with with tons of interesting encounters and plot threads to keep my campaign filled with planar goodness. I think this is my favorite WotC book this year!
Is it all generic PoL setting stuff, or do they have any specific Realms stuff in there?
The Barnes and Noble didn't have it today.
They didn't have last months books either!
I really want my 10% discount on those books.
;)
The Plane Below came out today, and I thought it was pretty darn spiffy. Lots of really great stuff in there! If you are a font geek like me, you might particularly like page 53 which has the new Barazhad script, the alphabet of the Primordial language. It looks awesome!
I haven't read through the whole book yet, but looks like it is filled with with tons of interesting encounters and plot threads to keep my campaign filled with planar goodness. I think this is my favorite WotC book this year!
Is it all generic PoL setting stuff, or do they have any specific Realms stuff in there?
It is PoL setting, but it is easy to apply to anything in FR you want given that. It's designed wholesale for stealing and implementing as you see fit. Most of it is easy to apply I find. I don't believe there is anything FR (or even Eberron) specific in this book. It is also excellent and well worth buying.
It is PoL setting, but it is easy to apply to anything in FR you want given that. It's designed wholesale for stealing and implementing as you see fit. Most of it is easy to apply I find. I don't believe there is anything FR (or even Eberron) specific in this book. It is also excellent and well worth buying.
I was hoping for a in the Realms sidebar or something. Still I love the Planes, so I'll definitely be picking this one up. I just dont like they way the do the campaign settings with just a mere 3 books. I think it would make more sense to offer up more support in these other sourcebooks. The PoL setting seems to go against that 3 book rule, they already got tons of books out for it, but that is a rant for another thread.
Plane Below doesn't really have so many problems in this regard, what probably will have lots of problems it the counterpart book Plane Above. That will probably descibe planes like Celestia and such, which will involve some influence from the PoL Gods that FR lacks.
I've never seen the point of sidebars and have argued in the past they are a waste of space. For one thing they are never comprehensive enough to be truly useful. Where something should be comprehensively covered in another setting, it should get a good dedicated dragon or dungeon article for it, not a piddly 1/2 page sidebar that doesn't do much to address the problem it's causing in that setting anyway. The other problem is with a new campaign every year you're going to need to address these problems across every campaign you release. This is just taking stuff away from new content from books that are written generically enough they are designed to be easily adaptable into those campaigns anyway (again, I'll give anyone that the likes of Divine Power is substantially more difficult with FR and other campaign settings - that's why they should get Dragon articles bringing the campaign specific fluff for those books).
I will somewhat be contradictory here and note sometimes the odd small sidebar is appropriate, as the entry for Jalanvaloss in Draconomicon II is informative and highly appropriate as it's an FR Dragon being bought into the PoL setting. Here is gets a small sidebar giving a quick explanation that she's still around, has some diminished power and is working on rebuilding her wealth and influence. This doesn't take a lot of room and the rest of the entry focuses on being able to use the creature in all campaign settings.
This is the core point though at the end, I'm buying the default PoL books so I can use all the material as much as possible in any game. I don't always run FR and I'm equally favouring running Eberron. I don't want books where large chunks of books are trying to explain every little thing for the numerous campaign settings various contradictions and problems over new, further convertable and interesting content. A 1/2 page FR/Eberron sidebar soon turns into a full page of content that is lost, where I could have a full page of new interesting stuff for any future campaign setting.
Honestly, I don't see why any of that is a problem for you. I can't understand how the application of a little imagination and creativity would not simply allow you to swap out a generic name such as "Wintervale" for a more specific location in your own world like "Mistledale" or "Llork"; or swap out the name of one god for another (Raven Queen for Kelemvor or Shar). I can't really relate to your complaint. I quite like the lore inside this book. But hey, if that is indeed a problem for you, maybe the book is just not for you. Sorry that you bought it and had to read all the way through it to find out that was your major problem.
I just got the book on Wednesday and haven't had time to read much of it, but am liking what I have read so far a tremendous amount. I would encourage people who like the planes, even if it has a little fluff in it, to buy it. I think those folks will be well entertained and find it useful for their campaigns.
wotc should of had sidebars for each world that can have any such thing to use isntead of said name in the books.
but on that note it works well on some such as the elemental chaos splat.
but much to dismay on some things, the world of PoL gets fleshed out a little bit more with each new adventure module or splatbook.....a bit of lore for it here and there.
You've read the book all the way through, and that is your only criticism? The book is just not generic enough for you?
I'm sorry I should of been a little clearer. I haven't read that particular book yet. My comment was more directed at the core books in general. That's not really the topic here so I was in the wrong there and I apologize, especially being as that I am always smiting people for going off topic. So I guess now, by my own code, I must SMITE myself. OW!
But back to the topic, I don't think this particular book would have problems fitting in with the other settings being as they all now have the same planar cosmology, with the possible exemption of Dark Sun.
Personally I'm looking forward to the new gladiator and similar options in Dark Sun that I can use elsewhere, but I'm definitely going to be running the setting. The good thing is that in 4E terms, things like books full of monsters will always be universally useful. I doubt I will be able to get much use out of the Plane Below in Dark Sun though, but I'm going to get tons of use out of it in both Eberron and FR so I can't complain.