Would this technology have made a leap in its use after the Wailing Years of the Spellplague? I think the designs of Moradin(/Gond) were intended to be much more than only decorative elements in Temples or signs of piety on mechanicly inclined Gondsmen.
Having said that, the 3e FRCS seemed to backtrack from that notion quite a bit, and having reread parts of it recently, the section on society pointing towards Feudalism was utterly nonsensical, since most places seemed to be ruled by town councils and elected officials more than any hereditary monarchies. Cormyr, sure... Procampur... Impiltur... Daggerford... technically Aglarond, in a half-arsed sort of way... among a handful of others. I can think of more that are lordships by acclamation, and even more that are oligarchies or elected councils than I can of hereditary monarchies. And even of those monarchies, only Cormyr as far as I'm aware has a title system that even remotely approaches a feudal model, though the society itself certainly doesn't reflect actual feudalism very well. Which again, definitely points towards a progressive society moving out of a medieval mindset (for a considerable stretch of time it seems) and technological level (not such a long time), and steadily moving towards Rennaisance levels of society (which I'd argue they arrived at a while ago actually) and technology (since the ToT).
Would have been a lot more interesting to me if they had carried that notion through rather than the pseudo post apocalyptic (which I can't stand as a genre to be honest, way too depressing. Didn't even care for the "classic" Mad Max, which just left me utterly cold even as a kid) stuff they tossed together. So yeah, I guess that was the long way of saying I could totally see the Realms in a Steampunk vein post Spellplague.
Even in terms of clerical magic, Gondar didn't rely on magic to power their artifice, so its one of the few things that would be relatively reliable, well, as reliable as Gondar stuff ever was. Its a good bet they would (or at least should) have received more funding though, so that their stuff was ever more prevalent and reliable. Of course, losing Lantan and all probably screwed them pretty badly too. Oh well, missed opportunities and all that I guess.
Having said that, the 3e FRCS seemed to backtrack from that notion quite a bit, and having reread parts of it recently, the section on society pointing towards Feudalism was utterly nonsensical, since most places seemed to be ruled by town councils and elected officials more than any hereditary monarchies. Cormyr, sure... Procampur... Impiltur... Daggerford... technically Aglarond, in a half-arsed sort of way... among a handful of others. I can think of more that are lordships by acclamation, and even more that are oligarchies or elected councils than I can of hereditary monarchies. And even of those monarchies, only Cormyr as far as I'm aware has a title system that even remotely approaches a feudal model, though the society itself certainly doesn't reflect actual feudalism very well. Which again, definitely points towards a progressive society moving out of a medieval mindset (for a considerable stretch of time it seems) and technological level (not such a long time), and steadily moving towards Rennaisance levels of society (which I'd argue they arrived at a while ago actually) and technology (since the ToT).
Feudalism is an economic system as much as a political one. And it should be noted that it was (almost) never so pure that town councils wouldn't exist, and that oligarchy is a pretty good description of many/most city states in medieval Europe, and for that matter outside western Europe (consider Novgord, for example). Huge portions of the realms, including places like Thay which don't superficially look that way, fit a generally 'feudal' model in economic terms.
I don't think there is any direct analog to compare the Realms to the real world in terms of economics. However, I think some basic things hold true.
- There is no hint of industrialization in Faerûn.
- Because of this there is no mass production, and the artisan is the source of all manufactured goods.
- The vast majority of Faerûn lives in rural areas, not in cities.
- Agriculture forms the backbone of most major economies.
- Specialization when it comes to crafts tend to be limited, the local blacksmith not only repairs your weapon and armor, but also creates horseshoes, and common metal utensils used around the home.
- Social classes are fairly stratified, with political and social mobility based upon three things (generally): ability / talent (adventurers), wealth (merchant class), or birth (nobles or those born into wealth).
- Few people have the opportunity to see or hear beyond their own village. Word most commonly travels by those who use the various trading routes.
This would easily characterize the bulk of Faerûn. It begins to relax once you head into the cities. Although the major changes there are largely limited to artisans becoming more specialized and social mobility becoming slightly more relaxed.
As a general rule I would classify most nations as embracing some form of enlightened mercantilism, but only loosely.
Most artisans learn their trade through apprenticeship.
It is perfectly conceivable that with magic, especially a high magic world such as Toril, that they would experience an economic revolution that would make the industrial and information age - combined - look pathetic and paltry.
On the other hand, we know this is not how things have unfolded. You do not see portals being exploited in such a way on a large scale, magical golems that produce masterwork craftsmanship consistently, around the clock and throughout the year, etc. Any number of things could be done with magic that could effectively give the people of Toril everything we enjoy in our modern world plus more.
However, everything we know about the economy and people of Toril does not agree with that assessment. It has been... overlooked, in a large degree, because it doesn't fit the desired flavor for the setting. It is only a problem if players want to do something like this, and of course want the answer to the question: Why hasn't anyone else thought of this or done it? It's also a problem for a DM who demands that the logic of the setting match up with the logic of the rules.
To my knowledge, Eberron is the only WotC campaign setting that actively tried to reconcile the rules with the setting.
So the consensus is that the existing limits on economic growth (roads throughs dangerous frontiers, social immobility and lack of organised specialistic artisanry) is hampering a larger move towards increasing subsistance levels through integrated magic and technology in the 15th century realms? Perhaps the suppression of organised artisanry is to be blamed, and I can see several candidates amongst the multitude of organisations doing just that. Sharrans or Talosians sabotaging just for the anguish and awe it would bring them, Siamorphe clerics banning the practise of large scale mercantile ventures, or rival factions amongs the Gondarkites claiming certain practises as unfaithfull....
I don't think there is any direct analog to compare the Realms to the real world in terms of economics. However, I think some basic things hold true.
- There is no hint of industrialization in Faerûn.
- Because of this there is no mass production, and the artisan is the source of all manufactured goods.
- The vast majority of Faerûn lives in rural areas, not in cities.
- Agriculture forms the backbone of most major economies.
- Specialization when it comes to crafts tend to be limited, the local blacksmith not only repairs your weapon and armor, but also creates horseshoes, and common metal utensils used around the home.
- Social classes are fairly stratified, with political and social mobility based upon three things (generally): ability / talent (adventurers), wealth (merchant class), or birth (nobles or those born into wealth).
- Few people have the opportunity to see or hear beyond their own village. Word most commonly travels by those who use the various trading routes.
This would easily characterize the bulk of Faerûn. It begins to relax once you head into the cities. Although the major changes there are largely limited to artisans becoming more specialized and social mobility becoming slightly more relaxed.
As a general rule I would classify most nations as embracing some form of enlightened mercantilism, but only loosely.
Most artisans learn their trade through apprenticeship.
I don't disagree with most of this, though I think social stratification isn't particularly pronounced. Though of course there are arguments that it wasn't really as pronounced historically, particularly outside medieval western Europe . I do wonder about your suggestion that most nations embrace enlightened mercantilism - it's not something I see, and I'm wondering what you're seeing that I'm not?
Only thing I'd tend to take exception with there Meldread is the social stratification thing you mentioned. There seemed to be a fairly fluid social mobility going on in the Realms. Just the existance of adventurers implies such... the fact that anyone can even own property who isn't a noble says that, as do a lot of other small little bits mentioned here and there throughout the Volo's Guides. There's plenty of evidence of social movement between lower, middle, and upper classes in those guides, and other sources as well, both 2e and 3e. I don't argue that there's a definite distinction between them, but things like valor, merit, marriage, wealth, and just dumb luck (the catchall for stuff adventurers can get up to) can move you between those layers. You may not be accepted by other members of those classes as truly equal to them, but that's more a question of social acceptance, not societal social rank. You maybe lesser to the old guard, but to the average commoner, and more importantly to the government, you're still upper (or middle) class.
That did happen historically too, to a rather larger degree than many contemporaries liked. At least one Italian condottiere (Piccolomini, possibly) went from common soldier to Count, and outside western Europe there are much more spectacular examples - Timur perhaps is best known. What I'd suggest is the Realms show a sort of social mobility that is more common towards the end of the middle ages and/or in cultures that never were all that stratified.
As to the historic occurance of social mobility, it certainly did happen, but it was the noteworthy exception, rather than the rule, at least as far as I'm aware. As to a condottiere, as I recall those were essentially mercenaries who worked for the Church, and as I'm sure you're aware, the Church played by different rules than the rest of the world.
Speaking of churches, that's another area of social mobility that is hard to overstate the difference of. Historically, you had to be a third or fourth born noble to have much hope of ever rising within the Church heirarchy, and it was considered a perfectly good, and even desireable vocation to follow. On Faerun however... the gods seem to pick their own clergy, at least as far as actual clerics go, which is a rather large and important diversion.
The role of gender is another issue where you have whole other issues of social mobility and such compared to Europe's cultures. Certainly there was a lot more egalatarianism than one is led to believe, but in a legal sense, and a rights sense, you were pretty much screwed if you were born a woman, with another irony being that the commoner woman generally had much more freedom than did their noble born counterparts.
Really, if you think about it, Faerun is considerably more socially progressive than even modern Earth has managed to achieve in a lot of respects, at least the 2e version of the Realms was, though that seemed to be declining a bit in 3e in some respects.
Stigger largely summed up what I meant by enlightened mercantilism. Every major nation and city, even the most oppressive, has a merchant class. This is true from as far east as Thay and Thesk, to as far west as the Moonsea and Dragoncoast, to the Swordcoast itself. It is very difficult to find a city that does not support a merchant class. Mercantilism is the lifeblood of virtually every city.
As you go out into the rural areas, however, I do think you'd encounter a more agrarian society. It is almost certain that the bulk of the people in Faerûn live in the rural countryside. In the real world, this has been true throughout the world, and we've only begun to see a shift of the majority of people living in cities in our lifetime.
I don't see where there is large disagreement on social mobility, if you take a look at the bigger picture. I said that there are three main things that allow social mobility: talent, wealth, and birth. This is still largely true even in the modern western world. What is different is that throughout most of Faerûn there are distinctly defined social classes; an informal or formal oligarchy exists.
This oligarchy poses an additional hurtle to overcome, and by its very existence stratifies nations and city-states into classes.
Stigger largely summed up what I meant by enlightened mercantilism. Every major nation and city, even the most oppressive, has a merchant class. This is true from as far east as Thay and Thesk, to as far west as the Moonsea and Dragoncoast, to the Swordcoast itself. It is very difficult to find a city that does not support a merchant class. Mercantilism is the lifeblood of virtually every city.
As you go out into the rural areas, however, I do think you'd encounter a more agrarian society. It is almost certain that the bulk of the people in Faerûn live in the rural countryside. In the real world, this has been true throughout the world, and we've only begun to see a shift of the majority of people living in cities in our lifetime.
I don't see where there is large disagreement on social mobility, if you take a look at the bigger picture. I said that there are three main things that allow social mobility: talent, wealth, and birth. This is still largely true even in the modern western world. What is different is that throughout most of Faerûn there are distinctly defined social classes; an informal or formal oligarchy exists.
This oligarchy poses an additional hurtle to overcome, and by its very existence stratifies nations and city-states into classes.
Ah. I agree with this, but it's not how I'm used to seeing the term mercantilism used. That did confuse me.
How far would you lead this technological advancement in your campaigns? Would you hesitate to introduce to much "steampunk" into the setting?
I think for the post-Spellplague Realms, steampunk-ish themes are appropriate and a great idea.
So long as a DM perceives that his or her players won't object to it (or think it "wrong" for the Realms), I say go for it. Heck, even if one or two players do squawck about it, just tell 'em it's been one hundred damn years. Priorities change when things go haywire with magic.
Given time with this theme, I would use Maxer Hlaar's creations as the starting point for an organization or business, based in Suzail, that sells magical constructs. Their motto: "Things made of gears will always rust. Our magical constructs are the kind you can trust!"
This group would compete fiercely with another organization that sells constructs out of the Sword Coast....say a group who recovered lost Lantanese (Lantanar?) relics from beneath the ocean and are using them as a template to build steampunk-type devices. Their motto: "Don't rely on fickle magic! The next time it fails your losses will be tragic!"
The irony would be that the Sword Coast group will have used one of Maxer's treasure finding constructs to unearth and recover all the Lantan-created devices they now base their own creations on, and they're still using it to this day.
The Suzail group wants that construct back and are willing to charter adventurers to "bring back the rightful property of Maxer and Cormyr".
I think for the post-Spellplague Realms, steampunk-ish themes are appropriate and a great idea...
This made me wonder, with Mystra's murder are there still restrictions on gun powder? I always thought it was odd to get rid of gunpowder and then come up with a half-magic functional equivalent.
And did Lantan get wiped out by the Spellplague or something else? If so, that's a shame. How can people not love those little artificer gnomes? They're cute and they make explosives. Win-win!
What happened to Gond anyway? If the Lantanese got scoured like so he would have intervened on the gnomes behalf in some way.
I am sorely tempted to give the 15th century realms a significant boost in the use and availability of smokepowder weapons. I just think it would fit to advance the particular parts of technology that could have followed from FR's present (14th century) technological knowhow.
I think for the post-Spellplague Realms, steampunk-ish themes are appropriate and a great idea...
This made me wonder, with Mystra's murder are there still restrictions on gun powder? I always thought it was odd to get rid of gunpowder and then come up with a half-magic functional equivalent.
And did Lantan get wiped out by the Spellplague or something else? If so, that's a shame. How can people not love those little artificer gnomes? They're cute and they make explosives. Win-win!
Yes, gunpowder still doesnt work. I asked Ed about this on Loremaster, unfortunatly that site is underconstruction at the moment so I cant post Ed's quote, but the jist of his answer was that, yes technology still has problems functioning properly in the Realms, but ofcourse the Gondsmen have discovered some exceptions, of course Ed didnt elaborate on these exceptions, so really I guess its up to the DM on whether or not to have gunpowder or ray guns in their Realms.
And Lantan was taken out by a tidal wave, which IIRC was a result of the Spellplague. But just because Lantan is gone (or is it?). Gond worshipping gnomes would still be around, so you can still have those little artificer gnomes runnin around.
Maxer Hlaar... Doesn't ring a bell; who is he?
Maxer was a mage who defended Cormyr from dragon attack and was awarded the title Defender of Suzail (equivalent in rank to a Baron amongst both the Purple Dragons and the nobility).
He was an 11th level Invoker (in 2nd Edition Advanced Dungeons & Dragons terms) who led a very private life, slowly amassing an arsenal of magical weaponry culled and collected by his semi-sentient constructs from the (then) ruins of Myth Drannor, the tombs of liches and a drowned city of sorcerers off of Athkatla.
See Volo's Guide to Cormyr, page 221.
What happened to Gond anyway? If the Lantanese got scoured like so he would have intervened on the gnomes behalf in some way.
I quite agree about the gnomes being saved in some way. The Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide is pretty blunt in saying, "All its machines, its technology, and its people were drowned. The land is much reduced in area, and its clockwork marvels lie rusting below the waves."
But, like so much else in the Realms over the years, we can treat this bit of information as not nearly as absolute as it seems. Which is to say now that we know the lore, we can "fix" it.
The last sentence about the much reduced in area "Lantan's Rest" says, "The pirates of Nelanther say a monster sinks any ship that draws near".
What this says to me is Gond created a clockwork marvel...something big enough to save the people of Lantan and the greatest of their works. Now the gnomes ply the ocean depths in this ocean-going device, slowly scouring the surface below the waves for all their lost marvels and driving off any would-be thieves they discover.
To everyone else, the first bit about Lantan being washed away is "true" as far as anyone cares to know or find out. Only the pirates of Nelanther have the barest hint of a clue that this is not the case.
I say Lantan still exists. There is now a sprawling domed metropolis below the waves. Down there are half-gnome, half-machines that work tirelessly in their clockwork city of marvels away from the prying eyes of those upon the surface. They are just waiting for the day when their master machine will be complete, raising their city-below-the-waves into the clouds. 
Click-whirl-click-ZZZZ that will be the sound of your doom!
...The last sentence about the much reduced in area "Lantan's Rest" says, "The pirates of Nelanther say a monster sinks any ship that draws near".
What this says to me is Gond created a clockwork marvel...something big enough to save the people of Lantan and the greatest of their works. Now the gnomes ply the ocean depths in this ocean-going device, slowly scouring the surface below the waves for all their lost marvels and driving off any would-be thieves they discover. ...
Captain Gnimo, part mecha-gnome and Lantanese prince, travels in luxury beneath the dangerous ocean waters. He and his crew of the Gnautilus, a massive clockwork submarine with a blend of incredible steam- and half-magic technologies, saved the entire population of Lantan before its destruction and transported them to the Gnautilus's home base beneath the seas. More than a simple port, it is a sprawling city with fantastic technologies that provide for all the gnomes' needs.
